tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post4443445296131322182..comments2024-02-14T06:42:21.988-06:00Comments on Context and variation: Science Online 2011: Underrepresentation hurts us allKateClancyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-42973085132119889062011-03-01T08:22:37.896-06:002011-03-01T08:22:37.896-06:00Tay, while I see your point in some ways, and agre...Tay, while I see your point in some ways, and agree that the way many white folks handle race is in some ways understandable if incorrect, I don't think socioeconomic status is enough. It's not just poverty but generations of systemic oppression of people of color that has created the inequalities we see today.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-65661645961773005322011-03-01T05:46:27.857-06:002011-03-01T05:46:27.857-06:00Whites who resort to the would-be postracial mantr...Whites who resort to the would-be postracial mantra "I just don't see race" aren't typically being hurtful, racist, or insensitive: they're merely trying to find a way to wriggle out of the cognitive dissonance progressivism has saddled them with. On the one hand, "race" is a discredited 19th-century white supremacist construct; on the other hand, minorities like the Asian woman mentioned in the post define themselves by racial identities. On the one hand no one should ever be given unfair consideration over another based on race; on the other, we must be sure that racial diversity is promoted. Cognitive dissonance pervades racial constructions, perceptions, relations, politics--at least if you're white, the one race expected not to have any sort of pride in its identity or celebrate its heritage. All other races and identities are encouraged to. Is it any surprise then that the natural reaction of many average white men and women is to stick their heads in the sand and wish race and the cognitive dissonance necessary to deal with it in progressive culture away?<br /><br />The reality is that we really should banish race from the room when trying to resolve inequalities, and focus on socioeconomic status instead. Affirmative action policies based on economic factors alone naturally benefit minorities overwhelmingly, while not complicating the issue with centuries of racial baggage and exacerbating racial divisions.<br /><br />If we're ever going to evolve toward a truly progressive egalitarian society, we have to abandon tribalisms wherever possible. This includes race and policies which stem from historic racial differences. If we can ameliorate present racial socioeconomic disparities by focusing on affirmative action which benefits all economically disadvantaged people, and leave race at the door while doing so, everyone benefits.Tay O.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-35458473699777884892011-02-07T12:41:41.563-06:002011-02-07T12:41:41.563-06:00In case anyone's still reading these comments,...In case anyone's still reading these comments, go check out this comment over at the Hermitage on affirmative action. Absolutely brilliant: <a href="http://scientopia.org/blogs/thehermitage/2011/01/24/the-academia-ghetto/#comment-63" rel="nofollow">http://scientopia.org/blogs/thehermitage/2011/01/24/the-academia-ghetto/#comment-63</a>.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-17479707674152900122011-02-01T13:15:27.379-06:002011-02-01T13:15:27.379-06:00Thanks Emily, Danielle, Arlenna. Emily, I think yo...Thanks Emily, Danielle, Arlenna. Emily, I think you make some good points -- I just saw on twitter today that programs that pair grad students with teachers seem to be pretty effective (Yale had something like that while I was there, a program through the NSF; a friend of mine was involved).<br /><br />Danielle and Arlenna, you are so right. I am at an R1 and want outreach to be a major part of my work as faculty. But I have no idea how to get that work legitimized or counted. If it helps, I am meeting with a dean this week to chat about this some. There should be a way for us to do Big Science and still reach out to and support our communities.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-56994508629584690622011-02-01T12:31:00.708-06:002011-02-01T12:31:00.708-06:00DNLee, that is such a good point. The TT culture n...DNLee, that is such a good point. The TT culture needs to change somehow so that people don't get screwed for trying to maintain their trenches work while breaking into the R1R2 world. And by TT culture, I mean senior faculty and administrator attitudes, so that those things are valued rather than discounted or worse. I hate that about this process.Arlennahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04199564304824250359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-66941374794944819592011-01-31T15:20:48.552-06:002011-01-31T15:20:48.552-06:00" I think that is true for a lot of people wh..." I think that is true for a lot of people who leave academia and science, and unfortunately most of the ones I know who left were women and people of color."<br /><br />I've noticed this too...and I'm fighting this cross-roads urge between being in the trenches (teaching/outreach at smaller schools, closer to students I identify and want to mentor) or breaking the glass ceiling (R1R2 schools, researching and publishing like crazy and making inroads to diversify science/academia at the top). And I bet alot of women, first gen graduates, folks from blue collar/immigrant families and people of color feel similarly.<br /><br />I wonder if it's something about our 'service' oriented interests/reach back and help others/nurturing inclinations that keep many of us from going to all out Big Science Big shot path.<br /><br />And just, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for this post. Awesomeness, indeed.DNLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08086475028464064823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-41001937763700549532011-01-31T11:48:42.216-06:002011-01-31T11:48:42.216-06:00Having mentored "historically underrepresente...Having mentored "historically underrepresented" students in the sciences through programs that target them and having taught them through similar programs, I can say that the efforts are out there but quite piecemeal. There are many factors that feed into the gaps, including a lack of encouragement of students from underrepresented backgrounds to engage in math and science in the early grades and encouraging all first-generation college attendees to consider the sciences. These steps and others can help bring much-needed different perspectives, goals, and yes, biases to the practice of science.<br /><br />Why would someone say that they don't "see race"? Do they not also see if someone is blond? That's just stupid. Colbert mocks that on many levels by saying it all the time on his show.EJ Willinghamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07333507287598525182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-21447285665410558662011-01-31T09:31:05.156-06:002011-01-31T09:31:05.156-06:00Thanks for coming by, Christina! I think it's ...Thanks for coming by, Christina! I think it's interesting that this post has gotten a lot less attention than the other one that was just about women. I was thrilled to see you asking the same questions on your blog, because it meant I wasn't the only one left unsatisfied with our conversation.<br /><br />Sometimes I think the shrugging has to do with the fact that the leaky pipeline for a lot of other underrepresented groups, especially for people of color, is a lot earlier than current working scientists and academics feel they can impact. I remember being told by a Latino professor once that most Latinos/as don't finish high school, let alone go to college (this was years ago, perhaps the stats are better now). So there is a pervasive notion of having nothing to choose from, because they aren't even in college, let alone choosing to major in science. There is an element of truth to this, and that means our broader impacts/outreach efforts need to focus on grade school and middle school kids and their teachers.<br /><br />However, there ARE people of color who want to be, or are, scientists RIGHT NOW, and we suck at supporting them. So all that shrugging makes their struggle invisible. That's where I think you and I and many others get frustrated.<br /><br />There are many great bloggers who are minorities. How can we support them? What needs to change structurally in the science blogosphere to make them less invisible? That's what I desperately want to know.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-83587961089033804772011-01-31T09:20:35.921-06:002011-01-31T09:20:35.921-06:00This is great, and I hope that it can spark a bigg...This is great, and I hope that it can spark a bigger conversation online! I've had a few very positive conversations about stuff like this with my real life lab friends and many very discouraging conversations with scientists at conferences and online. It feels like there's a pervasive shoulder shrugging even amongst seemingly progressive people along the lines of, "Well, it's engineering (or whatever), the numbers are always going to be like this. If people aren't choosing to become scientists (or stay in academia or whatever) it's not my fault." <br /><br />Even worst there's still a surprising number of people who use "science" to back up their prejudices, saying things like "there isn't any overt discrimination anymore, any differences in representation are due to differences in innate ability." For a depressing recent example (about gender, but he generalizes to all discrimination/diversity): http://www.science20.com/science_20/there_still_gender_discrimination_science. I hope that this can change soon, but it's going to take a lot of people to fight the trolls.Christinahttp://scienceblogs.com/oscillatornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-91678235213043009592011-01-30T20:34:03.594-06:002011-01-30T20:34:03.594-06:00GPD, that's an interesting point you make, abo...GPD, that's an interesting point you make, about not being taken seriously unless you blog about minority issues in science. I hope that is not true, but I don't know; I'd trust your thinking over mine here. I have a feeling that we are embarrassed at our poor representation and how poorly we handle race and ethnicity issues in the science blogosphere.<br /><br />For me, it was only in the context of the Science Online session on women bloggers that I felt I could open up and talk about these issues, because blogging on them for the sake of blogging about them felt like something I could get attacked for (after all, there are plenty of examples in the blogosphere of women getting attacked for daring to speak about these things). But it seems like, now that we've talked about these issues for the millionth time, people are finally saying, hey, yeah, sexism is real, and we want to do something about it!<br /><br />I really wish this conversation would get more broad. I wish networks would do a better job recruiting lots of different folks. I wish the support system was stronger for people of color. And the only way I can think about improving things is to not let this conversation get lost while we're all high-fiving each other for finally getting the gender thing.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-81058371319970113812011-01-30T19:43:22.948-06:002011-01-30T19:43:22.948-06:00The bloggosphere is really no different than acade...The bloggosphere is really no different than academia. We will see the few people of colour leave the science bloggosphere if there is a lack of support. Increasing the presence of minorities in mainstream communities like Scientopia is really important because of the global scale of outreach. I don't have to be in City X to be a role model to a female minority undergraduate or graduate student. It is one of the reasons I stay and blog about science and the challenges I face. I worry a little bit, however, that as minority scientists, we won't be taken seriously unless we blog about these issues.unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949487275042211766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-92085335185106783392011-01-29T14:29:55.407-06:002011-01-29T14:29:55.407-06:00akajb, I really appreciate your perspective and am...akajb, I really appreciate your perspective and am glad you wrote. I think we all can have really different ways of experiencing our identities, and I certainly don't want to assume there is only one way to do it.<br /><br />In my example, knowing the individuals, the person wasn't trying to be racist, exactly, but probably was trying to be hurtful. This is why it's good to notice that with racism and sexism, intent doesn't necessarily matter, but impact. My friend placed a real importance on her identity and race, which she had mentioned previously, so the speaker must have known what an invalidation it would be.<br /><br />In any case, I think we're all trying to get better, and at least for me, that is the biggest deal of all.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-18021341002399921812011-01-28T14:52:02.068-06:002011-01-28T14:52:02.068-06:00Very interesting discussion. I'm a Canadian fe...Very interesting discussion. I'm a Canadian female bi-racial grad student in CS (very male dominated). To be honest, I've always considered myself white (although others don't) and, except for this topic, would never have mentioned my race since I believe it's unimportant. <br /><br />I grew up with out my parents ever pointing out or really even discussing race. This sounds terrible, but the point, was that they just taught us to treat everyone equal. This was great, I never focused on people's skin color or really noticed it. Until university when people started making comments based on my name (doesn't (and isn't) a "white" name) or skin color. The "where are you from" comments started. <br /><br />I do wonder if in your example, the person who said she didn't notice race, wasn't trying to be racist, but saying that really meant she didn't notice it - instead she noticed people. I'm not sure where I stand on affirmative action - I dread getting hired because I'm female and not white instead of because of my skills. But when you put down your name, or show up for an interview, you just can't kind those characteristics. <br /><br />I also am never sure how to work with people who define themselves first by their race. Something I know I need to learn. My department is mostly international students - Chinese, Iranian, South American, Indian, everywhere. I find that they students often group themselves by race, and talk in their native language. I don't blame them, I'd be more comfortable like that too, but it does make it difficult to know how to interact with them. <br /><br />I find this topic very interesting, and one I'd love to know how to deal with better. It's too bad that so many people find it hard to just look at your skills and ignore everything else. :(akajbhttp://guidetogradschoolsurvival.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-44242894720724211402011-01-28T13:04:55.372-06:002011-01-28T13:04:55.372-06:00Kevin, I think that's a good goal, and at leas...Kevin, I think that's a good goal, and at least one small thing we can do to bring continued attention on these issues.<br /><br />Arvind, I so hear what you are saying. I struggled with how to write this post because I don't want to champion people of color, but be their ally. I'm not sure whether I achieved that here, but I'm willing to put myself out there and make some mistakes so that someone can correct me!<br /><br />David, as you get to know me you'll find it doesn't take much to make me cry... but even someone with more hardened lacrimal glands than I would have had a hard time in your session :). You were so smart to include Danielle and Alberto, because they were crucial to the success of the panel. Their sites are now must-reads for me.KateClancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10266484364483890008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-8415093888764343902011-01-28T09:17:00.766-06:002011-01-28T09:17:00.766-06:00Kate, thank you ever so much for your elegant and ...Kate, thank you ever so much for your elegant and impassioned reflections on our session. I had not considered that opening with "Redemption Song" would be so emotional - I simply wanted to set the tone and illustrate that Bob Marley was a fervent admirer of Dr. King. I know that we upset the folks in the session in Room A with our noise but I was so delighted to have so many folks sing along. I think that we had the only session with live music AND the only one that didn't mention the arsenic life episode.<br /><br />Moving to a historically-Black college/university (HBCU) three years ago has been an incredible growth experience for me and broadened my mission to contribute to diversity in science. I feel like I've made some contributions to encouraging women in science and medicine but increasing ethnic and racial diversity has its own additional challenges. <br /><br />Being at a HBCU - traditionally serving African-American students but increasingly Hispanic students, low wealth students, and first-generation college students of all backgrounds - also convinced me that I can never fully appreciate what it's like to be an African-American or Latino/Latain in the American South. That's why is was so, so important to capture the voices of Alberto Roca and Danielle Lee. They each have perspectives I could never have. I've learned so much from them and I plan to continue this conversation, especially as Alberto expands his efforts at MinorityPostdoc.org and Danielle continues to be the vocal advocate she has always been.<br /><br />We need to have these discussions no matter how uncomfortable they may be. By facing these challenges, we are all enriched. Learning exactly *how* to be an ally requires work to confront our assumptions, privilege, and ignorance without defensiveness so we can operate with sensitivity and understanding.<br /><br />Thank you to everyone who chose to come to our session over the other superb, competing sessions.<br /><br />And to you, Kate, you are totally on a roll! I'm so glad to see how much this meeting inspired you. You are a terrific writer and scholar and I look forward to reading more from you. Thank you, again.David / Abelhttp://cenblog.org/terra-sigillatanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-90903147825928599362011-01-28T07:56:02.709-06:002011-01-28T07:56:02.709-06:00Great post Dr. Clancy! I was just commenting about...Great post Dr. Clancy! I was just commenting about Dr. Lee at Ed Yong's place:<br />http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/01/27/celebrating-female-science-bloggers/#comment-34775<br /><br />This is, once again, a great summary and I loved how you included your personal perspective. I hope it raises as much discussion as your other post on women in science did. Also, it is sometimes a tough line to walk when you choose to not stay silent and champion a minority group that you don't belong to. You have to be alert to the risk of taking over their voice. You did an amazing job with this post!Arvindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12621942648455040015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7100452276682801125.post-2898748364945528332011-01-28T01:05:39.843-06:002011-01-28T01:05:39.843-06:00This is the MLK Jr. session post I was waiting for...This is the MLK Jr. session post I was waiting for. Thanks for writing it. I felt it was one of the most important sessions I attended. <br /><br />Not to be self-promotional but I tried to take a look at the situation in marine sciences for black professors and compiled a brief history (too brief sadly): http://deepseanews.com/2010/10/minorities-in-marine-biology-the-dearth-of-black-professors/<br /><br />I hope I can find the time to carry out more discussion during black history month.Kevin Zelniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14192385384151149566noreply@blogger.com